D for Grease Pencil and D for Focus Selection - conflict

Draise's picture
Project: 
Bforartists Tracker

Problem, D for Focus selection conflict with D for draw within the Grease Pencil Edit Mode

Troubleshoot:

  1. Go to Mode: Grease Pencil Edit Mode
  2. Make a selection of new strokes
  3. D for draw stroke
  4. Things will focus AND draw a stroke

Conclusion is that the drawing experience is disjointed and you cannot undo a viewport focus.

Status: 
Closed (duplicate)
Priority: 
Normal
Category: 
Bug report
Component: 
Miscellaneous
Assigned: 
Reporter: 
Created: 
Wed, 02/28/2018 - 16:05
Updated: 
Sat, 03/10/2018 - 10:05

Comments

43
Draise's picture

A solution I know works and have implemented before - which I also know is a big change fro BFA - is making F for Focus and making the "Radius" control (mapped to F) everywhere into R, the same key as "Scale" which is logical, because you scale the brush radius. It also is easy to remeber due to being the R of "Radius" and the F of "Focus" which is somewhat standard on more than one of the top 3D software I can think of, including Maya, Max, Unreal Engine, Softimage, Cinema 3D, Houdini, Modo, and.. you get my drift.

The ONLY conflict I found is in the Grease Pencil Edit mode where you should be able to scale stroke - of which a key combo could solve this easily.

Reiner's picture

F is already in use for radial control in many editors and modes. That's no good idea to toy with them around.

We have mapped focus to D now. We should stick with it. This means you need to find another key for the grease pencil tool.

Draise's picture

Radial tool is only used in Paint, Weight, Sculpt modes and drawing in the Image editor - and complimentary to Grease Pencil. Grease pencil is everywhere in every mode in the 3D View and in the VSE and in the Node Editor and Image Editor.  I have to change nearly triple the hotkeys with dozens of D focused Greasepencil hotkeys and key combos to make Grease Pencil clean of D in quantity to then add a potential conflict (can't be S, because that is extrude in Edit mode, though that would be nice) instead of just changing only two hotkeys to change Radial hotkey to a tested and tried alternative to a more logical consistent program function with F key for focus. I know we have touched this debate earlier with F for focus and we got a middle ground of D as long as there is no conflicts. But there is conflict, and it's pretty big feature disrupting conflict.

I have tried making D for focus as release, as double pres, but I can't make it not conflict.  Both trigger with D.

I am not sure what the reason F as radius should be like so...I am not very clear why F is typical for radius from.. what method? I have not used it in other software like that, F has always been focus selection. What is the reason? Is it because it rests under the Index finger on rest? Is it because it's a Blender default? (that can't be the reason!) I am still not clear why. Would be nice to hear why, to atlease motivate me to try find an alternative solution.

Changing the greasepencil..it's everywhere in every mode, majority of views. Radius is only in certain modes in two views, Image and 3D View. 

Changing all of the grease pencil shortcuts can't be the solution (because that means changing the entire BFA map in all modes to make room to a L hand Grease Pencil system - or using a weird non-ergonomic shortcut, bad for 2D artists).

A non key changing solution is instead of D as the modifier, maybe making it Shift or Ctrl or Alt plus the mouse Lclick using the EVENT_TWK - after I review potential conflicts to that. But I am pretty sure it will conflict with some other feature... I'd have to test and cross test the code in all modes, all views with GP.. which is nearly everywhere. Might be worth it..

...but please! Tell me why not F for focus? R for Radius? Even when I have already toyed with them out of experience in production doing that change for personal use?

Why does the alterntive solution have to be so complicated? 

Reiner's picture

Because the deal is: we use Bforartists as the base, then add the Blender hotkeys back that can be added back. And what conflicts then gets changed, at the Blender keys. Since we have chosen the Bforartists keys for good reason.

I have never ever used the Grease pencil. And 95% of the users won't .But i have very often used the paint features. This is all days work.

Draise's picture

Why did Bforartists choose F for radius (a Blender default)? What is the good reason?

Every day use? WER is every day use. R is everyday use... F to focus on selection is every day use in majority of software.

I have hired artists to use the Grease Pencil on all day projects... I am trying to also think of them.

A solution to change F as radius is remove the hotkey and go with a more elegant hold down CTRL modifier, move mouse in direction (up/down for strength, left/right for radius) instead of moving F to R.

Reiner's picture

Painting and sculpting is all days work. This keys needs to be under the left hand.

Draise's picture

What do you think of a CTRL modifier and mouse movement, up/down strength and left/right radius? I have seen it done.

Reiner's picture

You know what i think. First BFA keymap, then Blender keymap, then fix the conflicts.

Could we please stick to the initial plan? It was a good plan. It was to avoid exactly this kind of discussions that we lead here.

We can at a later point work at keymap optimizations. The current plan is to finish the full keymap.

Draise's picture

So... we live with this bug for now till I finish the merge?

The idea of F for radius could also be a modifier to a tweak event on mouse. Might solve the issue and still be able to move Focus to F. I'll have to test.

I'll postpone this task, I suppose.
 

Draise's picture

Status: Active » Postponed
Reiner's picture

So... we live with this bug for now till I finish the merge?

What bug? You have a key conflict with incorporating the Blender keymap. The rule is, first the Bforartist keymap. Then the Blender keymap, and the keys that conflicts needs a new home then. So you have to find a new home for the grease pencil hotkey.

Draise's picture

GP hot keys and F hot key are both Blender and BFA defaults. What do you suppose there?

 

Reiner's picture

To find a new home for the GP key. Since grease pencil is not so often used.

Draise, i feel your frustation here. But we already said that we will also include a experimental keymap at one point, for things like the timeline with lmb select for example. And there you can toy around with alternative settings as you wish. The official keymap should be as conservative as possible.

Draise's picture

This issue is beyond the Full BFA key map.  the rule can't apply. Because two BFA defaults are conflicting. Meaning the fix has to be BFA. If Blender defaults are secondary, the least disruptive least conflicting change should happen and reflect to the BFA default.  

2 hot keys BFA defaults in 3 modes 2 views changed. Needs to be L hand for sculpt artist and modelers and rig weights. All day work. (And focus needs LClick for all artists all day)

1 modifier hot key to more than 75% of the views in ALL modes + sub keys from BFA default changed. Needs a L hand for animatic artists, animation directors, 2D animators and Retopology artists. Also all day work.

Even a two hot key shift is less disruptive than changing the GP modifier hot key. 

Maybe I can try make the Modifier for GP something like SHIFT, ALT and/or CTRL for GP but then the Lclick press or click WILL conflict with major features, including lasso, add to selection and choose selection popup. I could double onto a XCV. V might make sense as a V only switches to face and it's a very easy key to press. Any of those only work in Edit mode. The key combo V+S for sculpting a brush is awkward. We could also change all the combos onto V+XCV. The only double feature is changing edit selection when drawing in Edit mode, which would be annoying in Retopology when you can use the GP to retopologize. So even then it might not be a good solution. S is extrude and also a BFA default, but could be used. It's already the sculpt for the GP. The issue is in Edit mode again it'll trigger an extrude.

SPACE drag for GP? SPACE is only used on search or an add on for dynamic menu. Still conflict.

Double mouse key? I would have to press two stylus buttons/features to draw.. middle + Lclick? Rclick+Lclick? One button on stylus and no hot key might be ergonomic. Then to sculpt GP the same mouse combo plus hot key S. But to erase it would have to be 3 mouse combos. I could change the erase to a hot key instead with the mouse combo just like the sculpt work flow. .. but this would conflict with the viewport controls.

Change entire GP work flow with multi combo hot keys with a multimouse and remove erase to a hot key like GP sculpt work flow? Could be E to erase like in Krita or CTRL like negative sculpt in Sculpt mode. But still it conflicts with view controls.

I'll have to test if I can do mouse combos in the code.

Then test to see if it feels right with my GP artist I hire. And test of it doesn't screw up the view.  Fatale for 2D animators. 

Or another solution. ..? Ideas?

Double hot key modifier? (Ahhhhhh!!!)

Tab! Tab could be used. It's free! I think..?

ALT+F for focus.... Maya style?

 

Reiner's picture

Draise. Please stop make it so hard for us.

To repeat myself a thousand times now, the task is to find a new home for the GP key. Since grease pencil is not so often used and not by so many people than the paint tools.

When you can't manage it, then give me the current key map, and i'll do.

 

Draise's picture

I'm trying to find a new home for GP. Please read the issues. It is no walk in the park. And I'm not over complicating. Changing the GP is just difficult. Near impossible without reaching a nonconflictong issue.

What do you think of TAB for the GP modifier? Everything else on the L hand is causing conflicts in multiple areas. GP is practically mode agnostic. Though Tab conflicts with Pie Menu's.

What do you think of adding a modifier to the D for focus? Instead?

Or change focus and free D? We could even remove it and go back to Blender default, previous BFA default. Numpad...

 

Edit: I'm testin gthe multi mouse system before work, maybe that will fix things for a new home for GP - then the solution is better than using D as a modifier, potentially. 

Reiner's picture

Draise, i am not assigned here. I don't have my head in this issue. I cannot say what fits best witout claiming this task and solving it. Which i don't have the time for at the moment.

Draise's picture

Ah ok..thanks for listening nonetheless. I guess we can come back to this later after the 2.79a assimulation/etc. Thanks for the patience with my thinking out loud. 

Just for documentation purposes: I tested mouse combo, that doesn't work very well, it's awkward and conflicts with some features. I also tested Tab and that too is awkward, tab is already a BFA default in GP for a mode toggle feature and causes conflicts with other systems. I tested V, tested ALT and CTRL and SHIFT. They also conflict with a feature in one mode or another. 

Reiner's picture

You can by the way still grease pencil paint in Bforartists by holding down the d key. It focusses once, then you can paint I-m so happy

Reiner's picture

What about we map grease pencil to numpad zero? This key is free now. And when you paint then you paint. And so your hand can rest at the numpad 0 then.

Reiner's picture

Status: Postponed » Active
Draise's picture

I made a map with R for radius and F for focus. I'll upload and you can try it here. I removed all conflicts with the Blender map. Our fingers are always on WER so it makes sense to not move them when sculpting or painting.  Secondary action is drop finger to other row,  focus view and grease pencil and view all/select all.  Priority on sculpting/painting radius with little finger chanve while keeping 2D work for majority of artists.

Priority also is software consistency when it comes to radius and focus. You got WER.. now try get F. There is no need to stick to Blender standards but industry standards. F for radius is only a Blender standard.

The GP to go on the right of the keyboard is out of the question and kills all artistic use of it.  It's the only 2D to 3D use when most artists are 2D coming to 3D to animate. Priority should be the GP on Left side. More so with the new GP updates.   I've tried changing it to all other L hand hot keys  but because it's mode agnostic, all other hot keys require huge changes to rest of BFA. Also BFA default is GP and D for focus is very new. Priority BFA defaults.  D for GP, move conflict.

To move GP to right hand requires moving the GP sculpting,  GP point/stoke manipulation WER, and select tools all to R hand if going to be ergonomic and efficient. No way. It's like rewriting all the nun pad hotkeys which we know already would make conflicts. One hotkey is not enough. And switching  on sculpt mode on the right with a key combo will change the view and hit another conflict.

Reiner's picture

R is scale. I smell a conflict here Smile

And grease pencil has lowest priority to me. It's a rarely used tool. But i will have a look at your solution Smile

Draise's picture

Surprisingly the only conflict is when we change modes, of which there is little conflict. When Scaling in Object mode, the radius doesn't apply. When in Paint, Vertex or Sculpt mode, Scale doesn't apply. Only mode that does cause some conflict is the Weight Paint mode and GP Edit Mode.

The conflicts I've found: 
1. Is within the Grease Pencil itself, where you can scale selections, in this case a simple SHIFT+R of D+R for Grease Pencil scale (in GP Edit Mode) fixes this, a secondary action. Easy to implement, works. 
2. In weight paint mode, for some reason you can move and scale and rotate bones at the same time as painting weights as if in Pose Mode, so the scale R conflicts. I am not sure if this should be the function of Weight Painting, where I can pose my rig while weight painting, but that can be debated (with pros and cons) and maybe the moving/rotating and scaling of bones, as much as selecting them (SHIFT+Lclick), those functions could be with a modifier in the Weight Paint mode to be consistent with selecting them. I'm not sure how to override a global translation system though for the Weight Paint Mode (as these hotkeys are defined elsewhere) - but it could be resolved potentially, in my opinion. 

Just a though, even if not common now, Blender and BFA have a huge potential to target the other half of the artistic industry: the 2D artists, 2D Animators, 2D Matter Painters and even modeling through 2D strokes which the VR market is heading quickly. It's the other artistic world that this software should also aspire to - as the GP is one of the best in the industry for 3D spaces and integration into 3D workflows.  

Here is the map:

 

Reiner's picture

Hmmm, i cannot see the conflict in weight paint that you mention. For weight painting the mesh is in weight paint mode. And here you don't scale.

The only inconsistency is Grease Pencil. And here's the question which habit to break. Navigation or pencil radius. I would vote for pencil radius. Make scale R again. And pencil radius in this case alt r. Pencil radius can be set from tool shelf. Scale not. I would even vote to make the pencil scale alt r appwide. That way everything is consistent again. And this would also fix the possible weight paint issue that you mentioned.

Consistency is important.

I have to test it a bit more ...

Draise's picture

Hmm? Maybe you need to test on an armature and go into "Pose Mode", select a bone, then go into "Weight Paint Mode" to test the conflict with scale. I can reproduce that conflict that way.

I'm ok with the swap on the GP to change radius to ALT+R or something with scale consistent. +1  

Reiner's picture

As told, when you do weight painting, then you usually have the mesh selected. I cannot scale it in weight paint with the old keymap. And when you select a bone then you are in pose mode again. No painting anymore. But either way, we would fix a possible problem with the alt + r solution too. So no need to reproduce it really.

And just to be sure, i meant ALL radius functionality should be moved to alt r. But just in case we don't introduce another hotkey conflict that way I-m so happy

Draise's picture

Ah ok. Full change for consistency, could work. +1

Strange about the bone scaling, it does it on my end.

ALT+R is Reset Scale. BFA default. frown

Maybe SHIFT or CTRL?

Maybe instead of a hotkey Press we could make it a hotkey Tweak with a direction, similar to most software where you hold a key then drag mouse to change brush radius/strength, maybe with Wait for Input. My 2D artists had a shine in their eyes with that idea when I was thinking out loud there.   laugh

I will experiment and do another map.

Reiner's picture

ALT+R is Reset Scale. BFA default. frown

Damn. That was the logical follow up for r to scale ...

That's the problem when you start to move one key to another hotkey. Chain reaction ...

Reiner's picture

Assigned: Unassigned » Reiner
Reiner's picture

Assining here now. We need a solution.

One thing beforehand: Fixing does not mean to start a revolution because you are in that corner anyways. The task remains the fix, not a rewrite. A rewrite would be another task then.

To remap center view to F and to remap pencil radius to R just because all other software focusses with F an all other software uses R for radius is NOT the conflict, and so not a valid fix here. At least not in the first place. We don't develop other software. We develop Bforartists. Either way, to optimize the keymap is a task for the experimental keymap once the full keymap exists. This task here is to find a fix for the current hotkey conflict.

The conflict is that we have moved center view from numpad 0 to D. Here we have the conflict. And here we need the fix.

As a side note, it seems that the grease pencil draw has no menu entry. Checking ...

Reiner's picture

D is impossible to remap. Too many connections to grease pencil. So we need a new home for center view. Numpad zero would be free ...

Reiner's picture

Z is pretty free. Just two entries. Fly modal and knife modal. But then you are in those modes. And so no conflict. Z is still in good reach. And american keyboard users could be even more happy with that. Z is above alt here.

Let's have a look how many center view entries we have.

Reiner's picture

Narp. We have also ctrl involved for center view, ctrl + D centers all views. And ctrl + z is undo ...

And this means, we have to revert the center view key to Numpad Zero. To find a solution here is a job for the experimental keymap. This taks is to fix the bug.

Reiner's picture
Reiner's picture

Assigned: Reiner » Draise
Reiner's picture

Draise, i have assigned it to you so that you can fix the full keymap here.

Reiner's picture

Status: Active » Needs work
Draise's picture

Focus Selected is now reverted back to Numpad 0?

Why are you talking about an experimental keymap? What is the purpose there? Why can't we hit two birds with one stone and just fix the Standards and Full and optimize all at the same time? Why are we making more work? 

Please re-review this solution: change Radius to SHIFT+Lclick tweak, move Focus Selected to F, solves all conflicts, fixes everything. Radius is easier to use with no click to confirm, strength is added to same hotkey, it's more intuitive (artistic) and viola, view focus is more consistent with artistic software and won't conflict, and we go "Be For Artists" = priority. We don't have to go back 2 steps. I'll upload a map there.

Reiner's picture

Why are you talking about an experimental keymap? What is the purpose there? Why can't we hit two birds with one stone and just fix the Standards and Full and optimize all at the same time? Why are we making more work? 

Because you breakt it, as shown here. And i have better things to do than to repeat your work and to fix what you break.

The deal was to readd the Blender hotkeys. Not to keep me busy with fixing your mistakes then. This is not how we work here. First make it working, then improve it. The way you do here is to break it immediately, and to make the fix even more complicated. This is how to not develop.

Draise's picture

As mentioned in the BFA full thread, I use experimental versioning systems before applying it to the official progress. I make tasks, wait for approval before applying fixes to the official. I keep each task open to revision to make sure that what I check is double checked by you to work with you. I don't make what I break the official work I'm doing in the other principal task. I am trying to find solutions by not deciding for you, or else a loooong time ago we would have made F for focus instead of D and ultimately discovered the solution we could do in another thread with SHIFT+Lclick tweak, I did not choose D for focus selected. That was your call. I just made the task that that feature, like most software, should be a left hand feature. Sorry for not checking the 4000+ lines of code in time before you implemented it into the official - and in the process of checking - did my job and found the conflict.

But like you say, let's not argue about the past.. and try find a nondisruptive solution and keep working. We can try improve the work delegation workflow a bit better, I can try learn to sync the input map versioning system to reflect the feature requests and tasks to Github if you want, and keep on commenting and versioning. 

Just to remind, I don't include experimental proposals to the official work I'm doing, which is indeed conservative with only approved tasks you've closed to the standard and fixes mostly in Blenders appended code.

Reiner's picture

Ported to Github. Closing.

Reiner's picture

Status: Needs work » Closed (duplicate)